Politikk, religion og samfunn President Donald J. Trump - Quo vadis? (Del 2)

Diskusjonstråd Se tråd i gallerivisning

  • Asbjørn

    Rubinmedlem
    Ble medlem
    26.03.2006
    Innlegg
    39.454
    Antall liker
    41.124
    Sted
    Vingulmǫrk
    Torget vurderinger
    2
    Problemet er at han ikke bryr seg. Hans agenda er ikke å gjøre livet enklere for majoriteten av de som var dumme nok til å tro på løgnene. Dette har vært åpembart ganske lenge for en del av oss.

    Dette er en rimelig presis oppsummering:

    Ønskereprise:
    Roger Eatwell defines fascism as "an ideology that strives to forge social rebirth based on a holistic-national radical Third Way",[53] while Walter Laqueur sees the core tenets of fascism as "self-evident: nationalism; social Darwinism; racialism, the need for leadership, a new aristocracy, and obedience; and the negation of the ideals of the Enlightenment and the French Revolution."[54]

    Historian Emilio Gentile has defined fascism thusly:
    [A] modern political phenomenon, revolutionary, anti-liberal, and anti-Marxist, organized in a militia party with a totalitarian conception of politics and the state, an activist and anti-theoretical ideology, with a mythical, virilistic and anti-hedonistic foundation, sacralized as a secular religion, which affirms the absolute primacy of the nation, understood as an ethnically homogeneous organic community, hierarchically organized in a corporate state, with a bellicose vocation to the politics of greatness, power, and conquest aimed at creating a new order and a new civilization.[55]
    Fascism's origins are complex and include many seemingly contradictory viewpoints, ultimately centered on a mythos of national rebirth from decadence.[65] Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists who drew upon both left-wing organizational tactics and right-wingpolitical views.[66] Italian fascism gravitated to the right in the early 1920s.[67]A major element of fascist ideology that has been deemed to be far right is its stated goal to promote the right of a supposedly superior people to dominate, while purging society of supposedly inferior elements.[68]
     

    erato

    Æresmedlem
    Ble medlem
    15.03.2003
    Innlegg
    20.263
    Antall liker
    11.143
    Sted
    Bergen
    Torget vurderinger
    1
    "In my life, I have watched John Kennedy talk on television about missiles in Cuba. I saw Lyndon Johnson look Richard Russell squarely in the eye and and say, "And we shall overcome." I saw Richard Nixon resign and Gerald Ford tell the Congress that our long national nightmare was over. I saw Jimmy Carter talk about malaise and Ronald Reagan talk about a shining city on a hill.

    I saw George H.W. Bush deliver the eulogy for the Soviet bloc, and Bill Clinton comfort the survivors of Timothy McVeigh's madness in Oklahoma City. I saw George W. Bush struggle to make sense of it all on September 11, 2001, and I saw Barack Obama sing 'Amazing Grace' in the wounded sanctuary of Mother Emanuel Church in Charleston, South Carolina.

    "These were the presidents of my lifetime. These were not perfect men. They were not perfect presidents, god knows. Not one of them was that. But they approached the job, and they took to the podium, with all the gravitas they could muster as appropriate to the job. They tried, at least, to reach for something in the presidency that was beyond their grasp as ordinary human beings. They were not all ennobled by the attempt, but they tried nonetheless.

    "And comes now this hopeless, vicious buffoon, and the audience of equally hopeless and vicious buffoons who laughed and cheered when he made sport of a woman whose lasting memory of the trauma she suffered is the laughter of the perpetrators. Now he comes, a man swathed in scandal, with no interest beyond what he can put in his pocket and what he can put over on a universe of suckers, and he does something like this while occupying an office that we gave him, and while endowed with a public trust that he dishonors every day he wakes up in the White House.

    "The scion of a multigenerational criminal enterprise, the parameters of which we are only now beginning to comprehend. A vessel for all the worst elements of the American condition. And a cheap, soulless bully besides. We never have had such a cheap counterfeit of a president* as currently occupies the office. We never have had a president* so completely deserving of scorn and yet so small in the office that it almost seems a waste of time and energy to summon up the requisite contempt.

    "Watch how a republic dies in the empty eyes of an empty man who feels nothing but his own imaginary greatness, and who cannot find in himself the decency simply to shut up even when it is in his best interest to do so. Presidents don't have to be heroes to be good presidents. They just have to realize that their humanity is our common humanity, and that their political commonwealth is our political commonwealth, too.

    Watch him behind the seal of the President of the United States. Isn't he a funny man? Isn't what happened to that lady hilarious? Watch the assembled morons cheer. This is the only story now."
    - Charles Pierce
     

    pedal

    Hi-Fi freak
    Ble medlem
    08.02.2007
    Innlegg
    6.189
    Antall liker
    4.816
    Torget vurderinger
    1
    Apropos Trumps siste sprell:
    (sakset fra dagens Finansavisen)


    – Trump har fått sin første seier
    Trumps første seier kommer i Panama, hvor president José Raúl Mulino kunngjorde at landet ikke vil forlenge Belt and Road-avtalen med Kina. Tidligere ambisiøse kinesiske prosjekter i Panama, som en høyhastighetsjernbane og en ny metrolinje i Panama City, ser nå ut til å være skrinlagt.

    —————

    Ikke sikkert at Trumps ferske tollsatser er ment å bli permanente. Kanskje er det forhandlingstaktikk for å nå (andre) politiske mål.
     

    pedal

    Hi-Fi freak
    Ble medlem
    08.02.2007
    Innlegg
    6.189
    Antall liker
    4.816
    Torget vurderinger
    1
    Som å innlemme Canada og Grønland i USA?
    Det synes urealistisk, men tipper feks mexikanske myndigheter kan presses til å gjøre en bedre innsats for å redusere landets narkotikaeksport og transitten av illegale innvandrere.
     

    Tweedjakke

    Hi-Fi freak
    Ble medlem
    29.01.2008
    Innlegg
    5.015
    Antall liker
    5.251
    Sted
    Sunnmøre
    Ikkje nytt for nokon her inne, men Lars Marius Garshol har ei god oppsummering av hovudpunkta i "Trump 2.0" på Bluesky. Lesverdig.

     

    JMM

    Slava Ukraini!
    Ble medlem
    27.11.2016
    Innlegg
    8.451
    Antall liker
    9.484
    Sted
    Fredrikstad
    Torget vurderinger
    4
    Mexikansk politi og myndigheter generelt er i svært stor grad i lomma til kartellene grunnet frykt og bestikkelser. Hvordan Mexicos innsats da skal forbedres er det heller vanskelig å se. Gitt at landet opplever 60.000+ drap årlig så er det fristende å anta at de hadde gjort noe forlengst om de faktisk hadde kunnet.
     

    Asbjørn

    Rubinmedlem
    Ble medlem
    26.03.2006
    Innlegg
    39.454
    Antall liker
    41.124
    Sted
    Vingulmǫrk
    Torget vurderinger
    2
    Ikkje nytt for nokon her inne, men Lars Marius Garshol har ei god oppsummering av hovudpunkta i "Trump 2.0" på Bluesky. Lesverdig.

    Enig i Garshols oppsummering. Som sagt, en fascistisk maktovertagelse i USA er ikke en God Ting. Det var eksakt dette noen av oss advarte mot før valget, men forsøket på å overta Canada og Grønland er enda villere enn jeg trodde.

    Jeg venter i spenning på at trumpistene her inne skal forklare oss genialiteten i dette, og på hvilken måte det kommer til å gavne folk flest. Skal vi begynne med navneopprop og utvalgte sitater av hva disse skrev her inne før maktovertagelsen?
     
    Sist redigert:

    xerxes

    Æresmedlem
    Ble medlem
    08.01.2005
    Innlegg
    12.417
    Antall liker
    8.311
    Sted
    Holmestrand
    Kan være klargjørende:
    «The best, most cogent and elegantly simple explanation into the inexplicably destructive negotiating processes of the president, by Prof. David Honig of Indiana University.

    Everybody I know should read this accurate and enlightening piece...

    “I’m going to get a little wonky and write about Donald Trump and negotiations. For those who don't know, I'm an adjunct professor at Indiana University - Robert H. McKinney School of Law and I teach negotiations. Okay, here goes.

    Trump, as most of us know, is the credited author of "The Art of the Deal," a book that was actually ghost written by a man named Tony Schwartz, who was given access to Trump and wrote based upon his observations. If you've read The Art of the Deal, or if you've followed Trump lately, you'll know, even if you didn't know the label, that he sees all dealmaking as what we call "distributive bargaining."

    Distributive bargaining always has a winner and a loser. It happens when there is a fixed quantity of something and two sides are fighting over how it gets distributed. Think of it as a pie and you're fighting over who gets how many pieces. In Trump's world, the bargaining was for a building, or for construction work, or subcontractors. He perceives a successful bargain as one in which there is a winner and a loser, so if he pays less than the seller wants, he wins. The more he saves the more he wins.

    The other type of bargaining is called integrative bargaining. In integrative bargaining the two sides don't have a complete conflict of interest, and it is possible to reach mutually beneficial agreements. Think of it, not a single pie to be divided by two hungry people, but as a baker and a caterer negotiating over how many pies will be baked at what prices, and the nature of their ongoing relationship after this one gig is over.

    The problem with Trump is that he sees only distributive bargaining in an international world that requires integrative bargaining. He can raise tariffs, but so can other countries. He can't demand they not respond. There is no defined end to the negotiation and there is no simple winner and loser. There are always more pies to be baked. Further, negotiations aren't binary. China's choices aren't (a) buy soybeans from US farmers, or (b) don't buy soybeans. They can also (c) buy soybeans from Russia, or Argentina, or Brazil, or Canada, etc. That completely strips the distributive bargainer of his power to win or lose, to control the negotiation.

    One of the risks of distributive bargaining is bad will. In a one-time distributive bargain, e.g. negotiating with the cabinet maker in your casino about whether you're going to pay his whole bill or demand a discount, you don't have to worry about your ongoing credibility or the next deal. If you do that to the cabinet maker, you can bet he won't agree to do the cabinets in your next casino, and you're going to have to find another cabinet maker.

    There isn't another Canada.

    So when you approach international negotiation, in a world as complex as ours, with integrated economies and multiple buyers and sellers, you simply must approach them through integrative bargaining. If you attempt distributive bargaining, success is impossible. And we see that already.

    Trump has raised tariffs on China. China responded, in addition to raising tariffs on US goods, by dropping all its soybean orders from the US and buying them from Russia. The effect is not only to cause tremendous harm to US farmers, but also to increase Russian revenue, making Russia less susceptible to sanctions and boycotts, increasing its economic and political power in the world, and reducing ours. Trump saw steel and aluminum and thought it would be an easy win, BECAUSE HE SAW ONLY STEEL AND ALUMINUM - HE SEES EVERY NEGOTIATION AS DISTRIBUTIVE. China saw it as integrative, and integrated Russia and its soybean purchase orders into a far more complex negotiation ecosystem.

    Trump has the same weakness politically. For every winner there must be a loser. And that's just not how politics works, not over the long run.

    For people who study negotiations, this is incredibly basic stuff, negotiations 101, definitions you learn before you even start talking about styles and tactics. And here's another huge problem for us.

    Trump is utterly convinced that his experience in a closely held real estate company has prepared him to run a nation, and therefore he rejects the advice of people who spent entire careers studying the nuances of international negotiations and diplomacy. But the leaders on the other side of the table have not eschewed expertise, they have embraced it. And that means they look at Trump and, given his very limited tool chest and his blindly distributive understanding of negotiation, they know exactly what he is going to do and exactly how to respond to it.

    From a professional negotiation point of view, Trump isn't even bringing checkers to a chess match. He's bringing a quarter that he insists of flipping for heads or tails, while everybody else is studying the chess board to decide whether its better to open with Najdorf or Grünfeld.”

    — David Honig»
     

    Asbjørn

    Rubinmedlem
    Ble medlem
    26.03.2006
    Innlegg
    39.454
    Antall liker
    41.124
    Sted
    Vingulmǫrk
    Torget vurderinger
    2
    Hvem behøver gå via kongressvedtak og lignende? Gammeldags, de er jo i lomma på trump uansett og gjør hva de får beskjed om av il duce. Mye mer effektiv saksbehandling på txitter. Behøver ikke bry kongressen med sånt. Høyesterett er også i trumps andre lomme, så bare å dundre på. Klager vil bli stoppet der, om ikke før. Og trump selv er i lomma på überpresident musk. Han har emailadressene og personalinfo til alle føderale ansatte. Tut & kjør.

    1738589196154.png
     
    Sist redigert:

    komfort

    Hi-Fi freak
    Ble medlem
    27.11.2010
    Innlegg
    1.619
    Antall liker
    520
    Enig i Garshols oppsummering. Som sagt, en fascistisk maktovertagelse i USA er ikke en God Ting. Det var eksakt dette noen av oss advarte mot før valget, men forsøket på å overta Canada og Grønland er enda villere enn jeg trodde.

    Jeg venter i spenning på at trumpistene her inne skal forklare oss genialiteten i dette, og på hvilken måte det kommer til å gavne folk flest. Skal vi begynne med navneopprop og utvalgte sitater av hva disse skrev her inne før maktovertagelsen?
    Men da skulle dere ikke ha satt "trumpistene" på Ignore!!. Det er gjentakende oppfordringer i tråden på å ignorere de som støtter Trump.

    I barnehagen lærer barna om stopp-regelen. Når de blir eldre begynner de å missbruke den ved å rope stopp når de skal pusse tennene osv..osv..
    På HFS lærer man om ignore-funksjonen. Når man ikke fikser diskusjonen lenger begynner man å missbruke funksjonen ved å ignorere meningsmotstandere.

    Jeg oppfordrer noen på den "lyse siden" til å sitere dette da de som har ignorert meg ikke vil se innlegget.
     

    defacto

    Hi-Fi freak
    Ble medlem
    04.05.2016
    Innlegg
    5.844
    Antall liker
    3.297
    Sted
    Liten by
    Men da skulle dere ikke ha satt "trumpistene" på Ignore!!. Det er gjentakende oppfordringer i tråden på å ignorere de som støtter Trump.

    I barnehagen lærer barna om stopp-regelen. Når de blir eldre begynner de å missbruke den ved å rope stopp når de skal pusse tennene osv..osv..
    På HFS lærer man om ignore-funksjonen. Når man ikke fikser diskusjonen lenger begynner man å missbruke funksjonen ved å ignorere meningsmotstandere.

    Jeg oppfordrer noen på den "lyse siden" til å sitere dette da de som har ignorert meg ikke vil se innlegget.
    De færreste bruker den funksjonen, så jeg gleder meg til svarene dine...eller var det bare syting...igjen?
     
    Sist redigert:

    Asbjørn

    Rubinmedlem
    Ble medlem
    26.03.2006
    Innlegg
    39.454
    Antall liker
    41.124
    Sted
    Vingulmǫrk
    Torget vurderinger
    2
    Men da skulle dere ikke ha satt "trumpistene" på Ignore!!. Det er gjentakende oppfordringer i tråden på å ignorere de som støtter Trump.

    I barnehagen lærer barna om stopp-regelen. Når de blir eldre begynner de å missbruke den ved å rope stopp når de skal pusse tennene osv..osv..
    På HFS lærer man om ignore-funksjonen. Når man ikke fikser diskusjonen lenger begynner man å missbruke funksjonen ved å ignorere meningsmotstandere.

    Jeg oppfordrer noen på den "lyse siden" til å sitere dette da de som har ignorert meg ikke vil se innlegget.
    Var det ment som et svar om genialiteten i trump&musks fascistiske maktovertagelse, unødvendige handelskriger, og trusler om å overta både Canada og Grønland? Prøv igjen, jeg tror ikke han gjør det av hensyn til at du føler deg urettferdig behandlet på HFS.

    Til din info: Det er flere måter å ignorere tullprat på. Man kan se det og likevel mene at det ikke fortjener en kommentar. Mye av det taler helt utmerket for seg selv.
     
    Sist redigert:

    otare

    Æresmedlem
    Ble medlem
    04.04.2007
    Innlegg
    14.693
    Antall liker
    11.036
    Sted
    Trondheim
    Men da skulle dere ikke ha satt "trumpistene" på Ignore!!. Det er gjentakende oppfordringer i tråden på å ignorere de som støtter Trump.
    Når man setter noen på ignore ser man jo fremdeles at de poster, bare ikke hva de skriver. Og så kan man klikke på innlegget for å lese det hvis man vil.
     

    komfort

    Hi-Fi freak
    Ble medlem
    27.11.2010
    Innlegg
    1.619
    Antall liker
    520
    Var det ment som et svar om genialiteten i trumps fascistiske maktovertagelse, unødvendige handelskriger, og trusler om å overta både Canada og Grønland? Prøv igjen, jeg tror ikke han gjør det av hensyn til at du føler deg urettferdig behandlet på HFS.

    Til din info: Det er flere måter å ignorere tullprat på. Man kan se det og likevel mene at det ikke fortjener en kommentar. Mye av det taler helt utmerket for seg selv.
    Mange av de personene dere søker nå er jaget, mobbet og trakassert ut av tråden. Også en fascistisk metode for å fjerne politisk motstand....just sayin :)
     

    Asbjørn

    Rubinmedlem
    Ble medlem
    26.03.2006
    Innlegg
    39.454
    Antall liker
    41.124
    Sted
    Vingulmǫrk
    Torget vurderinger
    2
    Mange av de personene dere søker nå er jaget, mobbet og trakassert ut av tråden. Også en fascistisk metode for å fjerne politisk motstand....just sayin :)
    Stakkars. Nei, den fascistiske metoden er langt mer brutal enn å møtes med motargumenter i en offentlig debatt. Det er ikke jeg/vi som gjentatte ganger har antydet at meningsmotstandere her inne burde vært banket opp om vedkommende hadde støtt på oss utenfor forumet.

    Det er heller ikke jeg/vi som har sluppet løs tusenvis av kriminelle lojalister fra fengsel, trukket tilbake livvaktene fra utpekte «fiender», og straks kommer til å doxxe alle FBI-agenter som deltok i etterforskningen. Det er fascistisk metode.

    Historisk lynkurs:

    Skal jeg tolke din mangel på saklig svar som at du heller ikke ser noe spesielt genialt i at trump&musk iverksatte eksakt hva de hadde sagt på forhånd og at dette var eksakt hva noen av oss hadde advart mot?.
     
    Sist redigert:

    Harry Stoteles

    Hi-Fi freak
    Ble medlem
    18.05.2020
    Innlegg
    2.906
    Antall liker
    3.136
    Sted
    Oslo
    Torget vurderinger
    0
    Mange av de personene dere søker nå er jaget, mobbet og trakassert ut av tråden. Også en fascistisk metode for å fjerne politisk motstand....just sayin :)
    Kommer kanskje litt an på definisjonen av fascisme. Umberto Eco skrev en gang om det han kalte "ur-fascism", der han prøvde å komme til bunns i hva fascisme er. Han skrev dette i 1995, altså lenge før dagens politiske situasjon. Men det er så treffende for det Trump-administrasjonen har gått til valg på, og gjennomfører nå, at jeg ikke kan la være å sitere alle fjorten trekkene han beskriver (med noen ellipser).

    Hele teksten er verdt å lese. Den fins hos The New York Review of Books, og jeg legger ved en pdf fra archive.org også.



    1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition. (…) As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth has been already spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.

    2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. Both Fascists and Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon Blood and Earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life, but it mainly concerned the rejection of the Spirit of 1789 (and of 1776, of course). The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

    3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action’s sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering’s alleged statement (“When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun”) to the frequent use of such expressions as “degenerate intellectuals,” “eggheads,” “effete snobs,” “universities are a nest of reds.” The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

    4. No syncretistic faith can withstand analytical criticism. (…) For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason.

    5. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

    6. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old “proletarians” are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.

    7. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. (…)

    8. The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy.

    9. For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such a “final solution” implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.

    10. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak. Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people of the world, the members of the party are the best among the citizens, every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party. But there cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader, knowing that his power was not delegated to him democratically but was conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a ruler. Since the group is hierarchically organized (according to a military model), every subordinate leader despises his own underlings, and each of them despises his inferiors. This reinforces the sense of mass elitism.

    11. In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. (…)

    12. Since both permanent war and heroism are difficult games to play, the Ur-Fascist transfers his will to power to sexual matters. This is the origin of machismo (which implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality). (…)

    13. Ur-Fascism is based upon a selective populism, a qualitative populism, one might say. In a democracy, the citizens have individual rights, but the citizens in their entirety have a political impact only from a quantitative point of view—one follows the decisions of the majority. For Ur-Fascism, however, individuals as individuals have no rights, and the People is conceived as a quality, a monolithic entity expressing the Common Will. Since no large quantity of human beings can have a common will, the Leader pretends to be their interpreter. Having lost their power of delegation, citizens do not act; they are only called on to play the role of the People. Thus the People is only a theatrical fiction. (…)

    14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. Newspeak was invented by Orwell, in 1984, as the official language of Ingsoc, English Socialism. But elements of Ur-Fascism are common to different forms of dictatorship. All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning. (…)
     

    Vedlegg

    Sist redigert:
  • Laster inn…

Diskusjonstråd Se tråd i gallerivisning

  • Laster inn…
Topp Bunn