Billig første platespiller

Dinosauren

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Jeg har inngått en kompromiss med sjefen. Jeg kan kjøpe en ny platespiller om 12måneder, hvis jeg i mellomtiden viser at jeg faktisk spiller vinyl, og ikke bare fortsetter å forsvinne inn i cd-samlingen. Så da trenger jeg en rimelig platespiller det neste året. Har innhentet to konkrete tilbud: 1) Ny Rega Planar 1. 2) Ny Audio Techica AT-LP3, oppgradert med en ny AT VM95EN pick-up. Disse to alternativene kan jeg få for samme pris. Alternativt kan jeg få AT-spilleren med en VN95ML pick-up ved å betale 500,- kroner på toppen. Hva kommer jeg til å bli mest lykkelig med? (spiller hovedsakelig rock).
 

defacto

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Jeg hadde en Hanss T10 med Dynavector 10-5 en gang. Det er den beste riggen jeg har hatt og det til 6000 kroner (bruktkjøp fra Sverige).
Den spilte rock kanonbra!
 

Norwegianwoodpecker

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Hmm. . Tipper det er si-kom-sa hva du velger. Du blir neppe fornøyd uansett og faren er at du går lei. Hva med å heller kjøpe brukt? Hvor bor du, jeg kjenner en som bor i Hønefoss som har/hadde en nedpakket i eske i åresvis som han snakket om å selge, mener det var en Thorens TD 190. Ser etterfølgeren koster 6500,-
 

HC

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Hvis du skal selge etter 12 mnd så ville jeg kjøpt enten brukt, demomodell eller på tilbud slik at tapet blir minst mulig. Av de to du nevner vil jeg tro Rega er lettest å videreselge om et års tid.
 

Gjest.

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Hvis du liker rock, så finn en brukt spiller med mellomhjulsdrift. Lenco L75 er en superspiller innenfor budsjettet ditt. Toppkvalitet fra Sveits.
 

Dinosauren

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Takk for svar. Har lyst på nytt, og er ikke så opptatt av videresalg, siden hytta også skal ha en platespiller... Glemte å si at jeg har en bra ekstern RIAA.
 

bambi

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Jeg rebootet vinylkarrieren min med en Denon DP 300-F, og på den sitter det en billig Audio Technica pick-up montert fra fabrikk. Har absolutt ingen reservasjoner mot å anbefale den på det varmeste som en entry level spiller til noen som bare vil spille musikk og kose seg, uten altfor høye krav til oppløsning og "hifi-lyd". Antar AT95 gir mye av den samme opplevelsen. Den spilleren gjorde at jeg fikk skikkelig lyst til å fortsette med vinyl, og ga meg tonnevis med ren musikkglede.
 

Dinosauren

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Takk Bambi, jeg er med deg her. Jeg har full respekt for alle her inne som kan høre de minste små nyanser, men jeg er nok ikke en av dem. Blir nok en billig Audio Technica med en oppgradert pick-up, tenker jeg.
Noen her som har erfaringer med enten AT VM95EN eller T VM95ML?
 

bambi

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@Dinosauren Bare hyggelig :) Men de nyansene er ganske lett hørbare på pickuper, faktisk. Men det jeg mener er at f.eks. en billig AT95EN vil gi veldig masse musikkglede for pengene, og det er ikke sikkert man blir lykkeligere av å kjøpe noe til mange ganger prisen selv om det objektivt sett er bedre. Jeg hadde nok også gått for den spilleren med AT pickup her.

Også hadde jeg ikke giddi å kjøpt Rega tror jeg, før jeg var klar for å legge ut for minst en Planar 3 eller hva de heter nå for tiden.
 

JMM

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Noen her som har erfaringer med enten AT VM95EN eller T VM95ML?

Ikke med EN, kun ML.

VM95ML er en knakende god pickup som jeg tror det er mer eller mindre umulig å slå til prisen, eller noe i rimelig nærhet. Om du vil like den 500 kroner bedre vet jeg selvsagt ikke, men i mine ører er den minst like god som f.eks en AT-150E, som er den beste MM-pickupen med en elliptisk nål jeg har hørt. Jeg vil uten videre anta at sistnevnte er minst like god som VM95EN, siden den har en skarpere elliptisk slipning (0.2x0.7mil, som ikke lenger er å finne) og en super-følsom beryllium nålefane. AT-150E er bedre på mikrodynamikk, noe jeg tillegger nålefanen, mens VM95ML graver frem flere detaljer, trolig grunnet en bedre og mer avansert nåleslipning.

Når/hvis du oppgraderer spilleren kan du trygt ta med deg VM95ML videre, mens VM95EN kanskje ikke vil ha helt samme apell på en dyr spiller.
 

bambi

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I denne prisklassen syns jeg man skal prioritere makro- framfor mikrodynamikk, så hvis jeg har forstått dette rett ville jeg muligens gått for den med elliptisk sliping. More fun.
 

MrSpock

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VM95ML fungerer veldig bra på min rimelige spiller. Liker også VM95EN - men hadde lett lagt 500 kroner for å få ML. Begge er et bra løft sammenlignet med entry PU som Rega Carbon. Jeg er ikke særlig erfaren med vinyl - så bare mine enkle erfaringer.
 
Sist redigert:

Dazed

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Jeg har skrevet litt om dette et annet sted. Engelsk, men det funker vel:

HOW TO BUY A TURNTABLE
(Written By Stein B. Andersen for the Facebook group Metal On Vinyl. March 2021)

Buying a turntable - especially your first - might raise a lot of questions about how and what to choose. We’ll try to go through most of the variables to clarify (or maybe complicate?) the process somewhat.

Second hand or brand new?
Many people will tell you that your money is best spent on a second hand turntable, and there certainly is some sense in that. Many of us get bitten by the vinyl bug and catch “upgraditis”. That’s why plenty of turntables end up on the used market. Some might (unbelievably enough) also realise that vinyl isn’t what they expected and decide to sell their barely used turntable.

An often heard opinion is that a vintage turntable is a great choice. One from the golden age of vinyl, when it was the dominant format and all the manufacturers’ development money went into turntables. ...and that’s not wrong either. A heavy, pretty, direct drive and quartz controlled Japanese higher end turntable can be a beautiful thing.

...But, when buying a used turntable, it’s essential to know what to look for! Knowing how to check the condition of platter bearings, arm bearings, motors, belts, idler wheels, look for mechanical issues, etc, is imperative. That, or being able to trust the seller 100%. The condition of the cartridge/stylus must also be accounted for. If the stylus is worn out and ready for replacement, you’ll want to know about it before you put your money on the table.

Even more important: If that beautiful, Japanese eighties high end turntable’s electronics and automatic controls act up or suddenly don’t work, there is a real chance that getting them fixed is very expensive, or even impossible.

That said: Entry level turntables have never been better than they are today, so even if you are on a budget, buying new might be preferable. The advantages of buying a brand new turntable are obvious. You can go look at them side by side at a dealer’s. You can pick and choose, getting the best prices online. ...And maybe most important: they come with a warranty. Also: Nobody has put their greasy fingers on them before you. :) Nothing is worn, and you need less knowledge to get in on the fun than if you buy used.

...And there’s always a good feeling getting brand new gear!

Where to buy?
Well, the apparent logical answer to this is: “At your local hi-fi dealer.”, but it’s not really that simple anymore.

Buying locally makes sense when buying used, because a turntable is not easy to pack safely for shipping. It is possible of course, but better safe than sorry.

There is something to be said for supporting local dealers to keep them around.

On the other hand, the selection available to those who choose to buy online is mind boggling, and online dealers are often cheaper.

The personal service hopefully available from a local dealer could be worth a lot, though. As is the possibility to look at and try out a turntable before buying.

…Then again: There’s A LOT of information and reviews on the internet.

People also love to show off their gear, so going around to your vinyl spinning friends and acquaintances to listen to and look at their turntables to form an opinion is smart. It’s fun too.

So: Buying online doesn’t have to be uninformed. To be honest: If you do a bit of research before buying, you could very well know more about the turntable you’re interested in than the Saturday boy at Turntables R Us.

Price range
Now, this is a big question. Turntables are available in all price brackets. From cheap and (not so) cheerful plastic all in one-systems to the oil rigs aimed at the sultan of Brunei and his friends.

As always, there is a point of diminishing returns, and how much you want to pay for those diminishing returns, depends on how “audiophile” you are.
That being said: Turntables are precision instruments of fine mechanics and electronics. Tight tolerances cost money, and with finer tolerances, production costs will rise exponentially.

We already know that playing vinyl is not cheap.

Everybody has their own budget and limits, but it makes sense to aim a little higher than the very low end of the price range. The all in one record players with built in speakers, etc, can not be recommended. Flimsy, lightweight sub £100/€100/$100 turntables without a counterweight or adjustable VTF (“vertical tracking force” - the weight with which the stylus presses down on the record.) and a coarse, very basic stylus certainly can’t be recommended in good conscience either, by yours truly. In a worst case scenario, they may actually even be damaging to your records.

If that is your budget, then keeping an eye on the usual marketplaces for a bargain second hand turntable would be a better option. Or, even better: If it is possible, save up for a month or three and stretch your budget a little. After all, it should be logical that a good turntable will cost more than three albums. Right?

If we look at what’s available around the €300/£300/$300 price point, things look much better. For that, you’ll find quite a few solid turntables with decent build quality and good parts. Probably something that’s worth upgrading a little down the line, if that’s your thing. This could be considered the sensible “entry level” to turntables.

Actually, if you are sure that vinyl is something you’ll like and that you’ll be sticking with this hobby, starting with a turntable in the €/£/$1000 to 1500 range is still in the “sensible” range. And we’re still in the “you get what you pay for” category. Going in that high could get you a turntable that stops the urge to upgrade in a year’s time, and you’ll enjoy it for many years. If you don’t feel like doing that, don’t worry. A $300 turntable will also sound very good and let you enjoy spinning vinyl to your heart’s content.

For the brave (or whatever characteristic you find fitting), it doesn’t have to stop there either. There are all sorts of higher end turntables with a myriad of solutions for making vinyl records sound as good as possible. Better tonearms, cartridges with fancy stylus profiles, longer tonearms for decreasing tracking error distortion or linear tracking arms that have none, heavy platters that reduces speed variation, motors with high tech speed control, Vibration dampening, suspension, space age materials, etc, etc. The sky's the limit! We won’t go into all that here of course.

Phono stage
When playing records on a turntable, you also need a phono stage, or a “phono preamp”. This might be built into your turntable, your amp, or be a standalone unit. In vinyl’s golden age, almost every stereo preamplifier, receiver or integrated amplifier had a “phono” input and a phono stage built in. Only the highest end phono stages were standalone boxes. (For the most part.)

When vinyl went away in the nineties, so did the amps’ phono stages, and if you wanted to play vinyl, you needed a separate phono stage between your turntable and a line input on your amp.

After the vinyl revival, many amps have gotten built in phono stages again, and many turntables too. The important part is: You need one. Here’s why:

The signal picked up from the record grooves by the stylus and sent from the phono cartridge is very low level. Much lower than a “standard” line level signal like that from a CD-player. It has to be amplified to approximately that level, which is what your amp is designed for. In addition to that; the grooves on a vinyl record are cut with a massive equalization added, attenuating the bass spectrum and boosting the treble spectrum. The bass would otherwise take up way too much room in the grooves, making the stylus’ job impossible and dramatically reducing the amount of music that could be put onto a record side. And, the treble waveform would become so tiny that it would be impossible to cut/engrave with any detail. The phono stage reverses this EQ, making the music signal sound “normal” when it reaches the amplifier.

Anyway: Same thing as with turntables. Don’t go for the very bottom end, but no need to go overboard either. If your amp or turntable doesn’t have a built in phono stage, £/€/$100-150 will probably sort you out nicely. Or aim higher. It’s up to you.

It’s worth noting that there are different types of phono cartridges:
  • Moving Magnet or “MM” (Which is what you’ll find in the lower end of the price range, and what’s most likely included on a complete turntable).
  • Moving Iron or “MI” (which for all intents and purposes is a variant of MM).
  • Moving Coil or “MC''.
These require different levels of amplification, input resistance, capacitance, etc. from the phono stage. Make sure you buy one that matches your cartridge. (If you don’t know, chances are your cartridge is a Moving Magnet, and all phono stages support MM.)

There are phono stages in all price levels as well. Solid state, tube based, ones with all sorts of features and adjustments. Watch this space for a future article about phono stages as well.

Paraphernalia?
As in every hobby, there are lots of accessories to be had. Record weights (Make sure your bearing platter and turntable warranty is up for it. Not really necessary, but looks cool.), antistatic guns, cleaning kits, record stands, automatic arm lifts, etc…

There’s one thing that’s pretty essential though: A carbon fibre brush! Make a habit of gently removing the dust from an album with the brush before playing it.

A stylus brush might also be a good idea, or maybe one of those sticky pads for cleaning it. (Onzow Zerodust or similar.)

Maintenance
Servicing your turntable is usually pretty simple. Dust it off once in a while, and lubricate the spindle/platter bearing with the manufacturer recommended oil once a year or thereabouts. (Or whatever the user manual says.) If applicable. This may not be possible on direct drive turntables, for example. Or, at least, it might take a warranty voiding excavation to do it.

There are parts that wear out, of course. Most notably the stylus. Manufacturers often quote a lifespan of around 1000 hours of playing time, but this will certainly vary. There are many variables. Also: drive belts may need changing occasionally on belt drive (doh!) turntables. Read your turntable’s user manual to find out what’s recommended.

Upgrades
Here’s the hornet’s nest. :) There are lots of turntable upgrades available. Many manufacturers make upgrades for their own products. If you have bought a turntable with a steel platter, for example, the manufacturer could sell you an acrylic platter as an aftermarket upgrade.

Third parties make aftermarket parts for various turntables too. Platters, counterweights, “better” sub platters, different platter mats (Let’s avoid the term “slipmat” which is something DJs use for scratching.”). Also, there are cables. Let’s not go there this time. Some people swap their tonearm for a better one… The possibilities are plentiful.

“Upgrades” range from snake oil via just “changes” to clearly audible and actual upgrades. This article won’t try to sort all of that out. :)

The most obvious upgrade you can do to a turntable, is to swap the cartridge or stylus to a better one. The phono cartridge may very well be the single part in a vinyl rig that has the biggest effect on sound quality. There is a Metal On Vinyl article about cartridges planned down the line.

Direct drive, Belt, Idler wheel?
The drive principle of a turntable is the subject of lots of discussion on the internet. People will claim that an idler wheel (a practically extinct design, but vintage turntables with this kind of drive remain popular) has the best “slam”, that belt drives are the quietest and DD’s have the most precise speed, etc, and that each have inherent weaknesses.

There is some (old) truth that some of this is based on, but the bottom line is that all of them can sound awesome. It’s just a matter of implementing each design in the right way. A way that maximises each principle’s advantages and works around their weaknesses to make a drivetrain do its job in the best possible way: To spin the platter at a correct and stable speed.

There is more than one way to skin a proverbial cat.

Automatic or manual
Automatic turntables (Turntables that start and stop the platter and lift the arm on and off the platter automatically, with a start/stop button) were actually more common in the seventies and eighties than they are now.

Since then, most manufacturers have followed the “less is more” philosophy and have mostly made manual turntables, where you lift the arm up and down with a lever, and cue the stylus manually.

The biggest real world advantage of an automatic turntable is that it lifts the arm and stops the platter when the record ends. More important to some than others.

The drawbacks are more parts that cost money, more electronics that some fear that can add noise to the audio signal and more components that can fail. The latter is a big issue when buying used/vintage.

Most vinyl enthusiasts today appreciate the fact that playing records is a manual and hands on process, and are perfectly happy with, or actually prefer, a manual turntable.

The choice is yours. Just remember that if you exclude manual turntables, you’ll be drastically limiting your choices.

Design philosophy?
There are many, many ways of building a turntable. Heavy, solid plinths and massive high inertia platters, High torque motors and super fast computer controlled speed control, low torque motors too weak to cause unwanted speed variations, suspended platters, suspended plinths, light and rigid, minimalist, oil rig, twin motor, etc… And any combination of those.

Geek out if you want and read up on them all to choose the one you believe to be “best”, pick one that seems sensible or pick a tried and true design from a trusted brand and go with that.

The job of the drivetrain is to spin the platter at a stable and correct speed, as well as to isolate the platter, tonearm and cartridge from vibrations from their surroundings. There isn’t just one correct way to do that either.

And that’s what makes it fun. :)

Conclusion
Hopefully, this has given you some insight for choosing your first or next turntable… Or maybe it has just made it more difficult? Anyway, it seemed like the article could be useful. :)

And remember: At the end of the day, it’s not what turntable you own that is most important, but rather that you are able to play and enjoy your records.
Get a turntable that you like. One you think looks good and that you’ll want to use. Turntables are cool. Who wants to buy something boring?

Good luck, and keep on spinning!

Appendix A - Example turntables
These are turntables in a few price brackets that are worth looking at. Not “Our recommendations” as such, nor a complete list, but sensible (*cough*) models in their respective price brackets that could be a good place to start (and end) your search.

Rega Planar 1
https://www.rega.co.uk/products/planar-1

Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC
https://www.project-audio.com/en/product/debut-carbon-dc/

Thorens TD 190-2
https://www.thorens.com/en/thorens®-td-190-2.html

MoFi Studiodeck
https://www.mofielectronics.com/studiodeck-turntable

Technics SL-1500c
https://www.technics.com/us/products/premium-class/direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1500c.html

Avid Ingenium PNP
http://www.avidhifi.com/turntable_ingenium.htm

Nottingham Analogue Studio Ace Spacedeck
http://nottinghamanaloguestudio.co.uk/turn_tables/
(PS: Tonearm and cartridge not included.)

Technics SL-1200GR
https://www.technics.com/us/products/grand-class/direct-drive-turntable-system-sl-1200gr.html

Michell Gyro SE
https://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/michell-gyro-se-turntable
(PS: Tonearm and cartridge not included.)

VPI Prime
https://www.vpiindustries.com/prime.html
 

JMM

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I denne prisklassen syns jeg man skal prioritere makro- framfor mikrodynamikk, så hvis jeg har forstått dette rett ville jeg muligens gått for den med elliptisk sliping. More fun.

Den skjønte jeg ikke gitt. VM95EN vil ikke ha mer av verken mikro eller makrodynamikk i forhold til VM95ML. Huset er det samme, nålefanen er den samme, kun nålen er forskjellig. Dermed får du ikke mer av noe som helst med VM95EN, men med VM95ML får du bedre detaljering og bedre sporing. Det er verdt 500 kroner i min bok.

More fun? Det skjønner jeg heller ikke. Mest morro får en fra det kvalitetsmessig beste valget og det er VM95ML.
 

bambi

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Den skjønte jeg ikke gitt. VM95EN vil ikke ha mer av verken mikro eller makrodynamikk i forhold til VM95ML. Huset er det samme, nålefanen er den samme, kun nålen er forskjellig. Dermed får du ikke mer av noe som helst med VM95EN, men med VM95ML får du bedre detaljering og bedre sporing. Det er verdt 500 kroner i min bok.

More fun? Det skjønner jeg heller ikke. Mest morro får en fra det kvalitetsmessig beste valget og det er VM95ML.
Det jeg mener er at jeg ville valgt den som malte med bredest pensel i den prisklassen, framfor fokus på detaljer. Personlig syns jeg det er mer moro enn mer hifi-prektig lyd.

Jeg trodde først at den pu'en som satt på Denon spilleren jeg hadde var en AT95E, men litt research viser at det trolig er en sånn generisk pu AT selger til platespilleprodusenter som Denon og andre hvor det skal sitte på en enkel, men brukbar pu. Uansett, den maler med bred pensel og fokuserer heller lite på detaljer, og i mine ører låt det svært engasjerende og musikalsk. Når jeg oppgraderte til AT150Sa på samme spilleren ble det helt klart mer detaljer og hifi-lyd, men jeg husker det også som at mye av moroa og engasjementet forsvant litt samtidig.

Nå spiller jeg på ART9 på en Ace Spacedeck og det er selvsagt noe helt annet, men hvis jeg skulle startet i andre enden igjen ville jeg trolig gjort som jeg sier, begynt med en 95 med elliptisk sliping. Jeg syns den dirt cheape OEM pu'en var varmere i signaturen og mye mer moro enn den mye dyrere AT150Sa.
 

ptb

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Til trådstarter.
Om du her kun snakker om ei "ventepølse" for å om 12 mnd kunne legge en del penger i et vinylrigg (og du allerede har en ok RIAA) så ville jeg prioritert PU, da den komponenten utgjør "mest" i umiddelbart oppfattet lydkvalitet.
 

JMM

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Det jeg mener er at jeg ville valgt den som malte med bredest pensel i den prisklassen, framfor fokus på detaljer. Personlig syns jeg det er mer moro enn mer hifi-prektig lyd.

Jeg trodde først at den pu'en som satt på Denon spilleren jeg hadde var en AT95E, men litt research viser at det trolig er en sånn generisk pu AT selger til platespilleprodusenter som Denon og andre hvor det skal sitte på en enkel, men brukbar pu. Uansett, den maler med bred pensel og fokuserer heller lite på detaljer, og i mine ører låt det svært engasjerende og musikalsk. Når jeg oppgraderte til AT150Sa på samme spilleren ble det helt klart mer detaljer og hifi-lyd, men jeg husker det også som at mye av moroa og engasjementet forsvant litt samtidig.

Det kan selvsagt hende at trådstarter er enig, men det blir jo en helt subjektiv sak og også veldig avhengig av musikksmak. Skranglerock, køntri og bedehusmusikk klarer seg helt fint med en simpel, limt elliptisk, mens jazz, klassisk og mer lavmælt akustisk musikk har veldig godt av en bedre slipning. Bare sånn for å sette det litt (vel mye) på spissen.

ART9 på en Ace Spacedeck er forøvrig en aldeles fortreffelig combo.
 

bambi

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Det kan selvsagt hende at trådstarter er enig, men det blir jo en helt subjektiv sak og også veldig avhengig av musikksmak. Skranglerock, køntri og bedehusmusikk klarer seg helt fint med en simpel, limt elliptisk, mens jazz, klassisk og mer lavmælt akustisk musikk har veldig godt av en bedre slipning. Bare sånn for å sette det litt (vel mye) på spissen.

ART9 på en Ace Spacedeck er forøvrig en aldeles fortreffelig combo.
Selvsagt blir det subjektivt, men nå spør nå trådstarter en gang om råd, og dette er mitt. Basert på mine erfaringer og smak, og jeg husker jeg koste meg skikkelig med denne entry level spilleren og den billige PU'en. Trådstarter sier også at musikksmaken hovedsaklig er rock. Da ville jeg valgt AT95EN, men hvis noen er uenige har jeg en svært lite brukt AT150Sa liggende i en skuff jeg kan kvitte meg med. :sneaky:
 

Dinosauren

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Sted
Askim
Takk for alle konstruktive innspill. Har da kjøpt en spiller etter å ha fått en "prøvelytt". Kanskje blir det en 12 måneders spiller, kanskje blir det noe som får lov til å bli på godplassen i lengre tid, vi får se. Valget falt på en Audio Technica AT-LP3,som jeg synes spilte overraskende bra selv med standard PU. Skal bli spennende å høre denne spilleren med bra riaa og bra høyttalere. Når det gjelder hva som skal senkes nedpå rillene etterhvert, så må jeg lytte mer enn de 5 minuttene jeg fikk i dag før jeg tar en endelig avgjørelse. Førsteinntrykket (riktignok ikke på mitt anlegg) var at både VM95EN og VM95ML låt imponerende bra. Skulle jeg spilt mye klassisk eller jazz tror jeg nok ML hadde vært et åpenbart valg, det låt veldig "rent" og fokusert. Til min "prepubertale drittmusikk" (konas uttrykk), så er jeg neimen ikke så sikker. Umiddelbart låt det som om det var mer "trøkk" i VM95EN.
(Beklager alle anførselstegnene, mangler foreløpig litt mer treffende audiofile uttrykk).:)
 

JMM

Hi-Fi freak
Ble medlem
27.11.2016
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1.455
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Sted
Fredrikstad
Torget vurderinger
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Grattis, håper du blir storfornøyd og at kona lar deg kose deg med drittmusikken din så ofte som mulig! 😁

Trådstarter sier også at musikksmaken hovedsaklig er rock. Da ville jeg valgt AT95EN, men hvis noen er uenige har jeg en svært lite brukt AT150Sa liggende i en skuff jeg kan kvitte meg med. :sneaky:

Det gikk meg hus forbi og gitt konas kommentar har du sikkert rett. Personlig ville jeg snust på din AT-150Sa, for det er en strålende pickup.
 
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