Technics SL 1210

[ChrisAndre]

Om du lurer på noe så er det bare å ta kontakt med David hos Mains Cable Han kan Technics SL, punktum, og han er svært serviceinnstilt. PSU lages av MCRU av David som driver selskapet

 

[Znerken]

Hvis jeg har lyst på en clamp til SL'en min, hva og hvor? Hvilken bruker dere?

 

[motoren]

Bruker denne,finnes på bayen til en rimelig penge.

mvh

 

[ChrisAndre]

Jeg bruker samme som Motoren, men min er på 720g. Ofte er de halvparten. I tillegg bruker jeg en litt lettere fra Rek-o-kut på 420g.

 

[motoren]

Jeg bruker samme som Motoren, men min er på 720g. Ofte er de halvparten. I tillegg bruker jeg en litt lettere fra Rek-o-kut på 420g.
Vis vedlegget 365500

Hvor har du fått tak i den på 720 g?

mvh

 

[ragwo]

Hvis jeg har lyst på en clamp til SL'en min, hva og hvor? Hvilken bruker dere?

Bo Heinrich her på sentralen selger Larsen clamp. Rimelige og velgjorte. Har kjøpt et par av ham, kan trygt anbefales.

 

[Znerken]

Hvis jeg har lyst på en clamp til SL'en min, hva og hvor? Hvilken bruker dere?

Bo Heinrich her på sentralen selger Larsen clamp. Rimelige og velgjorte. Har kjøpt et par av ham, kan trygt anbefales.

Hvor mye pleier han å selge en for? Så pene ut de!

 

[ragwo]

Hvis jeg har lyst på en clamp til SL'en min, hva og hvor? Hvilken bruker dere?

Bo Heinrich her på sentralen selger Larsen clamp. Rimelige og velgjorte. Har kjøpt et par av ham, kan trygt anbefales.

Hvor mye pleier han å selge en for? Så pene ut de!

Tror det er 350 kr inkl frakt. Send ham en PM så ordner det seg garantert

 

[ChrisAndre]

Jeg bruker samme som Motoren, men min er på 720g. Ofte er de halvparten. I tillegg bruker jeg en litt lettere fra Rek-o-kut på 420g.
Vis vedlegget 365500

Hvor har du fått tak i den på 720 g?

mvh

Det var på ebay fra Hong Kong. Husker ikke om det var fra 2juki eller en av de andre kjente ebay-selgerne

 

[Valfy]

Det ligger en SL1210 Mk2 med et par mods og Jelco arm på brukten her nå.

Er 12500 ille, med arm og uten puck?

 

[Kleine Freiheit]

Ser bare en uten arm, men Jelco armbord, til 8500,-

Men uansett: en 1210 i topp tilstand med originalarm får du for 4-5k. Jelco ligger på det samme ny, brukt rundt 3-5,5k.
Armbord er ikke så veldig dyrt.

Jeg ville gitt max 7 for denne kombinasjonen. Altså inkl. arm.

 

[Valfy]

Armbordet koster ca $250, ser jeg. Føttene ca. $80-100.
Det er kanskje litt drøyt, ja..

Jeg har plater, men ingen spiller enda. Kjenner jeg blir litt ivrig...

 

[knarfar]

Mike New bearing - I påvente av ny spindel skal komme leste jeg et sted det var endel loddepunkter i bunnprintet som hviler mot bearingen som måtte slipes ned. For å få lageret stabilt nok slik at den ikke rir på printet. @Crisandre eller andre som har erfaring her???

 

[ChrisAndre]

Ja dette er null problem. Bruk en negl klipper på undersiden og trim av loddepunktene

 

[knarfar]

Ja dette er null problem. Bruk en negl klipper på undersiden og trim av loddepunktene

Okay. Brukte du voks i bunn for å dempe som du tidligere gjorde tidlig I tråden?

 

[ChrisAndre]

Nei. Ingen voks sammen med MN bearing. Bare følg vedlagt bruksanvisning. Tror bruksanvisning lastes ned fra hjemmesiden. Det er absolutt ikke vanskelig

 

[knarfar]

Nei. Ingen voks sammen med MN bearing. Bare følg vedlagt bruksanvisning. Tror bruksanvisning lastes ned fra hjemmesiden. Det er absolutt ikke vanskelig

Takk for svar. Det altså bare å glede seg. De oppgraderingene jeg har gjort til nå har alle vært hørbare; Isonoe føtter, ny strømforsyning med regulator og Funkfirm platematte. Blir spennende hva MN bearing kan bidra med.

Vurderer også å bytte armkabelene, men finner ikke ut av siden til kab etter beskrivelsene gjort tidligere i tråden.

 

[ChrisAndre]

Det høres veldig bra ut og du er på vei til å få en meget meget god platespiller! Når det gjelder armkabler, så er det slik at du får et helt nytt armrør som Kevin hos KAB USA har dempet innvendig og ferdig loddet i headshell-enden. Når du får armen så er det veldig enkelt å skru av den gamle, skru på nytt armrør og tre kablene ned mellom armbasen. Som du ser på bildene som jeg tok av denne prosessen lengre bak i tråden, så investerte jeg i tillegg i et nytt arm pcb-kort. De tynne armkablene skal loddes til dette printet. Jeg gruet meg litt siden jeg aldri hadde loddet, men det var ikke vanskelig. Øvde på et gammelt pcb kort fra en radio før jeg begynte på armkablene Fra KAB USA så ber du bare Kevin om å ferdig-lodde ett sett med Cardas Litz RCA kabler på dette pcb-kortet, fordi de kablene er vanskelig å lodde. Tror ikke han fakturerte for loddejobben heller Og med 4 stk nye Cardas headshell kabler, så vil du da ha nytt dempet armrør med Cardas, nytt pcb kort med bedre signalveier og Cardas Litz som skal inn i riaa. Altså Cardas hele veien fra pickup til Riaa, og DET merkes!

Dette koster ikke mye, og jeg kan love deg en svært så merkbar oppgradering. Og da vil du se at originalarmen er en meget god arm med veldig gode lager! Det låter rett og slett så mye bedre at du vil nesten ikke tro det! Siste oppgraderingen jeg tok på org armen var å kjøpe en KAB Fluid Damper. Da har du arm i massevis

Alle de oppgraderingene på armen, må vurderes opp mot å kjøpe en ny (evt brukt) Jelco 750D. Det vil være et enda bedre alternativ som lar deg utvide mulighetene for dyre MC pickuper...

 

[Lazymann]

Hei
Bare opplyse at arm boarden til Mike koster inkl. frakt til Norge i dag på 1.620,- Jeg anser vel det ikke så veldig "billig" og ett sett med Isonoe Føtter koster 1.489,-
Jelco armen er helt ny, kun spilt 2-3 plater for test og justering! i tillegg er det nytt deksel. Så 7 lapper inklusiv arm er vel litt optimistisk ! Kleine Freiheit

Ser bare en uten arm, men Jelco armbord, til 8500,-

Men uansett: en 1210 i topp tilstand med originalarm får du for 4-5k. Jelco ligger på det samme ny, brukt rundt 3-5,5k.
Armbord er ikke så veldig dyrt.

Jeg ville gitt max 7 for denne kombinasjonen. Altså inkl. arm.

 

[Lazymann]

Armbordet koster ca $250, ser jeg. Føttene ca. $80-100.
Det er kanskje litt drøyt, ja..

Jeg har plater, men ingen spiller enda. Kjenner jeg blir litt ivrig...

Du får ikke Mike arm borden til 250 dollar!

Har en følelse at mange her inne gjerne vil ha en Ferrarri til Skoda pris! Men hvem vill ikke det!

 

[ChrisAndre]

Ikke helt enig, kleine freiheit.

De 1210mk2 som er strøkne koster som regel 5000kr.
Mike New kobber armbord koster ca 1700 +frakt +moms: ca 2000kr
Isonoe føtter: ca. 2000kr ink frakt og moms
Pen 1210mk2: ca. 5000kr
Total: 9000kr
Så 8500kr synes jeg er en helt korrekt pris. Hadde det i tillegg vært en Jelco 750D så ligger vel de på ca 5000kr ny dersom man ikke går får en Isokinetik SM750. Med Jelco synes jeg helt opp til 12000kr er en god pris.​

​

Read more at http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/vinylavdelingen/82909-kresen-nygebynner.html#Mhjp4U4WY2xbclay.99

 

[Valfy]

Armbordet koster ca $250, ser jeg. Føttene ca. $80-100.
Det er kanskje litt drøyt, ja..

Jeg har plater, men ingen spiller enda. Kjenner jeg blir litt ivrig...

Du får ikke Mike arm borden til 250 dollar!

Har en følelse at mange her inne gjerne vil ha en Ferrarri til Skoda pris! Men hvem vill ikke det!

Jeg har ikke kunnskaper til å uttale meg så veldig høyt, jeg bare så her: Solid Copper Armboard for Technics SL-1200 & SL-1210 Turntables - Mike New Audio

265 AUD (inkl. frakt) + 25% = 2033 NOK
250 USD = 2148 NOK

Isonoe Audio Isolation føtter koster 1440 NOK (inkl. frakt) + 25% = 1800 NOK
Link: Isonoe Audio Isolation System with M6 Thread (Set of 4)

Skyt meg gjerne.

Det kan være vi nordmenn (meg inkludert) vil ha ting for billig ja.. Det skal jeg ikke krangle på..


Alt i alt er kanskje 12500 en pris begge kan leve fint med..

 

[ChrisAndre]

12k så er det med Jelco 750D, Mike New Copper Board og Isonoe.

 

[Valfy]

12k så er det med Jelco 750D, Mike New Copper Board og Isonoe.

12500, men det stemmer.

 

[ChrisAndre]

Det er ingen upris, men jeg ber deg tenke på hvilke pickuper du kommer til å satse på. MM eller MC? Org SL-armen er minst på høyde med Rega RB-303 lydmessig og kvalitetsmessig, og du får svært vellydende pickuper i både AT150MLx, 2M Black og Nagaoka MP-500. Eller Dynavector 10X5 som Arve digger (ikke hørt den sjøl). I stedenfor å kjøpe en Jelco som primært er for stivere MCer, så får du svært mye spiller i en pen mk2 til 5000kr som du oppgraderer litt. Ikke mye, for det er absolutt ikke must. Og mange tror sikkert det, fordi jeg snakker så varmt om oppgraderinger, men det trengs ikke. 3 oppgraderinger gir dog et voldsomt løft lydmessig:
- Cardas KAB armkabler
- Isonoe føtter
- KAB PSU eller Mains Cables R Us Linear PSU
Da havner du på under 10lapper og min påstand er at du må opp på minst RP6 nivå for å tangere dette.

 

[Valfy]

Det er ingen upris, men jeg ber deg tenke på hvilke pickuper du kommer til å satse på. MM eller MC? Org SL-armen er minst på høyde med Rega RB-303 lydmessig og kvalitetsmessig, og du får svært vellydende pickuper i både AT150MLx, 2M Black og Nagaoka MP-500. Eller Dynavector 10X5 som Arve digger (ikke hørt den sjøl). I stedenfor å kjøpe en Jelco som primært er for stivere MCer, så får du svært mye spiller i en pen mk2 til 5000kr som du oppgraderer litt. Ikke mye, for det er absolutt ikke must. Og mange tror sikkert det, fordi jeg snakker så varmt om oppgraderinger, men det trengs ikke. 3 oppgraderinger gir dog et voldsomt løft lydmessig:
- Cardas KAB armkabler
- Isonoe føtter
- KAB PSU eller Mains Cables R Us Linear PSU
Da havner du på under 10lapper og min påstand er at du må opp på minst RP6 nivå for å tangere dette.

Gode, konkrete råd. Det setter man pris på.
Hvor mye henter man på å kjøpe et sånn magnetisk svevebord fra Jas?
Så på et sånt hos Erdalstereo. Koster rundt 6000.
Har ingen umiddelbare planer om noe sånt. Likevel moro å høre synspunkter.

 

[Lazymann]

Det er ett annet aspekt her også, er at alt er helt nytt bortsett fra selve spilleren. Kun spilt 2 eller tre plater for test og justering.
Det følger også med en helt ny tonarmkabel i orginalembalasje. Den koster vel en god tusing den også! I tillegg så må man vanligvis bytte deksel, det er også gjort. Kjøp fra Japan, tror jeg betalte en 1000 lapp der også

PS. Angående PU på Jelco, så fungerer også Ortofon Black og Blue veldig greit.

 

[ChrisAndre]

Helt enig i at Jelco 750D går glimrende til Ortofon 2M Black, og jeg angrer på at jeg solgte min 2M Black. Grunnen til at dette går bra er pga Jelco sin flytende demping

 

[Lazymann]

Helt enig ChrisAndre, jeg har begge to fordi jeg benytter de på en M5G som er koblet opp mot noen Vintage Receivere. Og på disse to MM får du en fet og god lyd for de som liker det

Helt enig i at Jelco 750D går glimrende til Ortofon 2M Black, og jeg angrer på at jeg solgte min 2M Black. Grunnen til at dette går bra er pga Jelco sin flytende demping

 

[ChrisAndre]

Den er innmari close den nye AT440MLb, men Ortofon 2M Black klarer jeg ikke glemme Den spilte så forteffelig og musikalsk med 750D på SL-1210M5G! Jeg visste ikke hvor god den egentlig var da jeg solgte den

 

[ChrisAndre]

Siden det er en del spørsmål rundt armbytte, fordi armen kanskje ser så billig ut osv, så limer jeg en del myter om SL-1200/1210 fra Kevin hos KAB USA. Har limt den inn for en stund siden, men det er interessant lesing:

https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

 

[ChrisAndre]

Myte 1 om arm:

Myth Statement

"The Technics Arm Costs $130.00"

Part Number	Description	Price	Comments
RFKN1200MK2A	ARM BASE ASSY	68.26
SFPRT17201K	ARM REST	7.02
SFPWG17201K	BALANCE WEIGHT	33.02
SEPZB12204	CLAMP, PHONO CORD	1.83
SFPCC31001K	HEAD SHELL	31.09
SFPZB17202	KNOB - ARM BASE LOCK	14.32
SFPAB13202	KNOB ARM LIFT	3.15
SFPRT18201K	LIFT ASSY	7.72
SFPJL18202K	OIL DAMPER	11.59
SFK0135-01	OVERHANG GAUGE	4.00
SFDH360M01	PHONO CORD	29.95
SFDP182-01	PHONO CORD P.C.B.	15.00
SFPZB12201K	PLATE, POSITION FIX	11.16
SFPZB12203	PLATE. ARM BASE COVER	7.02
SFQA829-03	SPRING - LIFT ASSY	1.19
SFPWG17202-1	SUB WEIGHT	7.95
SFPAM18201K	TONE ARM ASSY - SILVER	130.00
SFEL026-01E1	WIRE	5.56
SFUM170-11	CLAMP	1.19
SFPAB18201K	PLATE	34.28	Total = $425.30

03/31/15 Info Taken From www.panasonic.com​

As most will see right away, myth promoters are comparing the cost of their favorite "complete arm" to the Technics wand and bearing assembly alone. This is folly since there is much more to a tonearm than just the wand and bearing assembly. The complete parts list above shows that clearly. The advantage of the Technics arm is that you can purchase just the parts you need to restore performance. A recent summation of all available parts tally's $2,423.49!
Add KAB cardas rewire $170
Add KAB Fluid Damping $150
Even without the assembly costs you have a high quality gimbal bearing tonearm with a base cost of $745.30!
And if you consider the mass production advantages that Panasonic has, the arm garners even greater value.
Myth Debunked.

 

[ChrisAndre]

Arm myte forts:

Myth StatementThe Tonearm Is The Weak Link, Replace It.


If you have been in this long enough, you know that the '1200 has come along way in terms of overall critisism. Why, at one time it was an accepted rule that the '1200 was not worthy of quality reproduction on any level, plinth, motor and arm. Well, times have really changed and as more learn what the 'table is all about, and more serious people use it and approve of it, the things left to criticize get smaller. These days it is down to the tonearm and in some cases just the wand wire.
Just like a turntable, the toneam is not a monolithic entity. When you read declarations like "Tonearm X is much better than tonearm Y", you should be skeptical and at least want to know more of what was truly compared. When you look at a tonearm, you have a the following items:

1. Headshell
2. Arm Wand
3. Bearing Sytem
4. Arm Base
5. Internal Wand Wiring
6. Interconnect
7. Phono Cartrtidge

There are certain things an arm must do well or else it will have an impact on the sound.

1. The arm wand must not produce a resonant tone. This is easy, just taper it or curve it at 2 dissimilar distances. A simple test of tapping the wand with a paper clip, while in a stationary groove will let you hear the "sound" of the tonearm.
2. The wand wire must be sonically neutral. Most of what people hear in the upper registers can be layed at the feet of the wand wire. For the '1200, in the MK2 and MK5 models, this is a tin plated fine strand and is truly the achilles heal of the arm in the upper registers. the M5G uses OFC fine strand and is significantly better. Our Cardas rewire is likely to be the best overall choice for neutrality. Once the arm wire is neutralized, then you can concentrate on the true item of color, the cartridge.
3. The bearing system must do 2 things well, provide low friction and provide a good mechanical ground. The '1200 arm has friction specified at 7 miligrams. That may be the lowest friction specified in an owners manual. The gimbal type bearing has 2 mechanical grounding points. one on top, one on bottom. We believe the gimbal offers the best overall technical performance. Non gimbals produce higher friction and less mechanical grounding.
4. The Interconnect is important to the extent of distributed capacitance. If you are using a MM cartridge, this capacitance adds with the preamp to effect the response of the cartridge. It needs to be known.

When you look at improving arm performance, fluid damping is another key element. Fluid damping eliminates shock resonance. that is the woofer pumping that occurs on even the slightest warps. There are other ways of dealing with this like choosing an arm with high bearing friction or choosing a very low compliance cartridge, both of which are poor solutions in our opinion. Fluid damping is not a bandaid, it is a key element in good tonearm design. The more you stabilize the arm, the more still the sound picture that develops. Fluid damping does not increase arm friction and so does not increase groove wear.
Of course there are alot of non technical reasons to want to try a different tonearm. My only comments regarding that approach is, know what the technical or functional limitations are and don't do anything that cannot be reversed. Here is some food for thought:

• Changing to non gimbal fixed bearing, this will have higher static friction and groove wear.
• Changing to unipivot, these have poor lateral stability, and will increase rumble and woofer pumping. If you are insistent in trying these, look for one that incorporates some method of lateral stabilization.
• Changing to fixed headshell, you will be giving up the ability to quickly audition different carts.
• Changing to fixed arm base, you will be giving up calibrated VTA adjust.

The cost to add fluid damping and Cardas wire to a stock 1200 arm is $318.00. What other tonearm at anywhere near that price will give you that and all the flexibility of a '1200 arm?
Read online reviews of DIYers who rewired their arms with Cardas and see what they say about it. Is there any reason to doubt that if the '1200 arm was rewired in that way, it would benefit any less?
At KAB it is all about value and performance, you can spend lots of money on a monolithic item that someone else says sounds great, or you can break things down into their component parts and analyze what is really going on . It is your hobby. Get more involoved in what makes it go!
Myth Responded To.

 

[ChrisAndre]

Myte: direct drive er ikke så stabile, da de hele tiden må regulere farten...

Myth Statement
Direct Drive is never on speed always hunting and searching
In order for a 'table to have low flutter, the rotational precision must be high. It is an undeniable fact.

There are two kinds of direct drive systems out there:
1. those that use positional updating systems.
2. those that use linear frequency generators.

The 'tables that use the update technique will make a correction to the platter speed once, maybe twice per revolution. These designs will appear to hunt and search for speed because the corrections are large and tend to overshoot. They also will exhibit high Wow and Flutter Test results, usually over 0.2%. You know them as the DJ variety, Stanton, Gemini, Numark, etc.

Linear frequency generators like those used by Technics, Denon, JVC and Kenwood to name a few, have a constant read on the platter speed and do not need to make any corrections unless it is truly neccessary. And since these systems know the precise instant that the speed has changed, they can make a correction that is timed properly without overshoot and, as a result, is imperceptable. These systems acheive Wow and Flutter results of 0.025% and that is really nearing the resolution of the test equipment. These drive systems were born in the discrete quad period 1972-78 where the need to lock onto a 30Khz carrier signal and trace modulations to 50Khz at the inside groove were a requirement.

To compare, a very good belt drive like the Well Tempered Turntable, reviewed fully by Audio magazine, shows a Wow of 0.12% and a Flutter of 0.03%, or W&F = 0.15%. ca 1988

There are few measurements of this type specified by todays new age manufacturers or done by magazines today.

One I found a few years back in Stereophile Magazine reported on the Music Fidelity turntable around $5K, Flutter only equal to 0.15%. Interestingly, the magazine would not publish the Wow figure, expressing doubts about the measurement, believeing it was too high and probably the result of record non-concentricity. Perhaps, still, it would have been useful to know what was actually measured. 0.15% is 5 times the flutter of the W.T.T.

Now go back and compare that to the Technics W&F at 0.025%.( That's wow and flutter combined remember. That's 5 times better than the W.T.T)
Those measurements would not be possible if the motor was "hunting and searching".
And it is the only kind of control system that can compensate for dynamic stylus drag as well as static drag. Further, Technics goes so far as to test for spurious or peak wow and flutter as well. The results for that measurement is still just 0.035%! These specs are in the owner manual.
Of course, there are those that will continue to delcare that while direct drive systems measure better, they do not sound as good as belt drive. We all should know that blaming the drive system alone as the single cause of poor sound in a turntable is an incomplete analysis. It might actually be more useful to understand what high levels of flutter actually sound like, and why that sound may be more acceptable to some and not others..

The following link from Answers.com reveals some interesting audibility data that results from only modest levels of flutter and it is worth reading.
Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's Questions
Myth Debunked.

 

[ChrisAndre]

Myte: Direct drive støyer da motor er direktekoblet til motor...

Myth StatementRumble and Motor Vibration Are Greater in Direct Drive Designs
If you have been in this long enough, you know that the '1200 has come along way in terms of overall critisism. Why, at one time it was an accepted rule that the '1200 was not worthy of quality reproduction on any level, plinth, motor and arm. Well, times have really changed and as more folks learn what the 'table is all about, and more serious people use it and approve of it, the things left to criticize get smaller.
The technical evolution of motor drives in phonographs is as follows:

1. Mechanical Direct Drive
2. Electrical AC Direct Drive
3. Electrical AC Rim Drive
4. Electrical AC Belt Drive
5. Servo DC Belt Drive
6. Servo DC Brushless Direct Drive
7. Quartz PLL Brushless Direct Drive

[SIZE=+1]Motor Power
[/SIZE]Each evolutionary step provided lower rumble and greater speed control. What may not be clear is that all drive systems except 6 and 7 have thier motors running at full power all the time. The brushless direct drive systems, because they rotate at the platter speed, need to be controlled by adjusting the power factor. This is the main reason brushless direct drive systems have such low motor noise. When running at speed, brushless direct drive systems use a very low amount of internal power.
[SIZE=+1]Rumble Frequency
[/SIZE]The actual rumble frequency created by a drive system determines its possible audibility. That fundamental frequency is determined by dividing the motor RPM by 60 to get a value in cycles per second.

For the average belt drive that would be 300rpm/60 or 5 Hz. There would be harmonics at 10 and 15 as well. You will note that this is in the stylus resonance area (8-15 Hz) where it can be amplified and reproduced as woofer pumping.. Motors operating on the AC line voltage will also self vibrate at 60Hz as well. The low frequency rumble enters through the belt, the 60Hz self vibrating noise enters through the motor mount system into the plinth.
[ref. A 4-pole motor would rotate at 1800 rpm, a 12-pole motor at 600 rpm, a 24 pole at 300]

Direct drive motors genereate a rumble frequency of 33.33rpm/ 60 or 0.5 hz. with harmonics at 1 and 2 hz. The 3 phase drive system will self vibrate at 3 x (33.33/60) or 1.66 Hz. Even with second and third harmonics, this is still outside the stylus resonance area. When you combine that ultra low frequency with the very low power factor involved, it should be clear that the direct drive motor is very quiet indeed.
[SIZE=+1]What is truly quiet
[/SIZE]A turntable drive system can be considered truly quiet if it generates an unweighted rumble of -50dB. That means that any and all motor noise is 50dB or 316 times smaller than a cartridge producing a 1khz tone at 5 cm/s. Typically that is where a MM cart will produce 3-5 mv., the rumble output would be 15uV.
I stress unweighted, for that takes all drive system noise into consideration. The weighted measurement will always be signigicantly higher. Weighting is supposed to discard frequencies that are considered inaudible. That may not always be the case. So always insists on both measurements. For the Technics 1200 the weighted is -78dB and the unweighted is -56 dB. An unweighted measurement will also reveal hum from an internal transformer if present, and hi frequency whine from certain types of DC motors, as well as bearing noises.

In summary the main thing to grasp is that, in a direct drive system the motor design is significantly different because it runs at platter speed. These are controlled power factor motors. Rumble can come from many sources. It can reveal itself as a deep hum and as woofer pumping exacerbated by the arm-cartridge resonance. We have also seen that it can reveal itself as a high frequency whine. The unweighted rumble measurement will tell you whether this is a problem or not.
[SIZE=+1]A simple test
[/SIZE]A simple test to detect motor noise in a belt drive system is to remove the belt. Cue the needle onto a record. Turn the table on, and increase the volume and listen for hum. In a direct drive sysem, this test can be done to detect internal transformer hum. Some test records have quiet tracks that let you test further for the lower frequency components of drive system rumble.

Myth Debunked.

 

[ChrisAndre]

Myte: målinger på feks wow and flutter har null og niks å så.

Myth StatementMeasurements do not reveal fidelity
Many audiophiles like to embrace the myth that measurements cannot tell you what something will sound like. They like to reflect on the Total Harmonic Distortion competition that amplifiers follied with in the 1970's. True, in the early 70's THD was the only "quality" specification used, but it soon proved to be insufficient. If you look at the complete history, you would find that in the mid 70's a new quality measurement was introduced. This was Intermodulation Distortion. Striding for low THD's engineers chained together many gain stages in series and closed a global feedback loop around them. Intermodulation occurs when the distortion cancelling feedback signal arrives too late to make a complete cancellation. With the introduction of IM testing, the THD wars ended abruptly. And those horrible sounding amplifiers, started to sound nice again. We can all thank Crown corporation for that. You can google it: Crown IMA Intermodulation distortion meter.
History teaches us a couple of things. First it shows that no 2 people hear the same thing the same way. There were many who thought those 0.00001% THD amps sounded fine. But there were others that were certain something was wrong with them. For those that had doubts, some stayed with older designs while others pushed on and found a technical reason and a solution to their dissatisfaction. That is how progress works.
The moral of the story is, when you make the right measurements, you get the right answer. And when your ears tell you that something is wrong, hard work will generally find a measurement to match it. There is never any justification to not measure. None. If Crown never did the hard work, we would still believe that the only way to get good sound was with zero global feedback. And while there are those that still believe that, Crown proved that there was another way.
The same goes for turntable drive systems. When early direct drive designs were criticized for audible abberations, many turned away, and went back to belt drive while some of the larger companies took a look at how the motors were being controlled. There are many ways to control the speed of a motor, the main issue seems to be whether to read the platter speed with a linear generator or to make simple updates to the speed once or twice per revolution. The updating method, still used today, will produce wow and flutter numbers greater than 0.1%, the linear generator method drops that an order of magnitue to 0.01% which is truly lab grade by any standard.
There are those who will wax on about cogging and "hunting for speed" that all direct drive systems supposedly suffer from; But how then does all that cogging escape the wow and flutter test? Why are we lead to believe that only belt drives benefit from the "flywheel" effect! Of course all drive methods benefit from the flywheel effect. And not all direct drive systems hunt for speed.
One might suggest that this vanishingly low W&F measurement is just like THD, that something else, even more audible may be hiding from the measurement? And they would likely be correct. This is the cogging or hunting for speed they like to talk about. But that behaviour, if it exists, can be captured by the weighted Peak Wow and Flutter test. And as far as I know, only Technics evaluates and specifies a peak wow and flutter measurement.
So what makes the 1200 different from others? Just look at the owners manual specifications.

• Wow and Flutter measured 3 ways:
• Platter alone 0.01%
• Weighted wow and flutter 0.025%
• Weighted peak wow and flutter 0.035%
• Rumble measured 2 ways
• Rumble weighted: -78dB
• Rumble unweighted: -56dB
• Quartz crystal controlled power source.
• The ability to read static and dynamic stylus drag.

What led me to question all this was a review that appeared in a very popular magazine_1/. Within the review of a $6K belt drive table, a wow and flutter test measurement was taken. They would not publish the wow figure saying that they felt the number too high and likely the result of the test record being off center. But they then go on to say that they "confirmed the excellent flutter measurement of 0.15%". Well, that's not exactly correct because the maker states that wow and flutter combined is 0.15%, not flutter alone! With average flywheel effects wow is typically 6 times greater than flutter 2_/ . So while they did not give us the wow measurement, one can surmise from the flutter measurement that the wow was closer to 0.9%. The measurements actually show the 'table to be "out of specification". Was it defective? Not according to the review which was generally upbeat and positive.
This experience apparently discouraged the magazine from publishing any further turntable measurements. That's too bad. It should have encouraged them to do more. What has happened to our hobby that allows a $1.7K table from 1988 to completely smoke a $6K table from 2004 on technical merit? The answer is simple, it is the abandonment of measurements from the review process. The over reliance on the myth that measurements do not reveal fidelity.

1_/ Stereophile Vol.27 No.3, March 2004; Musical Fidelity M1 turntable & SME M2 tonearm
2_/ Audio Magazine July 1988 Review Well Tempered Turntable (Wow 0.12%, Flutter 0.02% Pg. 62)
[SIZE=+1]More Measurements
[/SIZE]What the hobby needs is more measurements, not less. Manufacturers should be able to explain why their products measure the way they do. Unfortunately it would appear that the hobby is more interested in letting the customer decide rather than giving the customer more information to base his/her purchase decision on. The problem with not having a performance baseline, is that it invites anyone and everyone to participate while leaving the customer at a decided disadvantage. And the editorial side of the hobby is no better. While we still see lots of measurements on cd players, and speakers etc, analog gets a free pass. Why is that?
Some important measurements:

1. Wow and Flutter weighted and weighted peak
2. Speed accuracy and drift
3. Rumble, weighted and unweighted
4. Tonearm bearing friction
5. Plinth resonance testing
6. Phono cartridge stylus dimensions
7. Phono cartridge stylus effective tip mass
8. Phono cartridge tracking ability

[SIZE=+1]In summary
[/SIZE]If your current turntable runs at a different speed each time you turn it on, ask yourself, how will you make sure the next one you buy is better in that regard? If your current cartridge mistracks on say, 5 records in your collection, ask yourself, how will you make sure the next one you buy doesn't increase that number? Because the way things are now, and with few exceptions, there is almost no way to answer those questions without first spending money. And while spending more money generally gets you a better refrigerator or automobile, it does not guarantee better analog audio.
We all know and agree that components "sound" different. And you have every right to choose a turntable because it has a certain "sound". But if you are trying to achieve a neutral lab grade analog playback system, one that lets you truly hear the cartridge and nothing else, you should be able to make that determination as well... before you spend money. And the only way you are going to do that is with the help of measurements, specifications and a review process that incorporates them along with subjective listening. Ed Long used to do just this very thing when he wrote for Audio magazine.

Myth Explained.

 

[ChrisAndre]

Myte: direct motoren forårsaker brum og elektromagnetisk støyfelt:

Myth Statement1200 Motor Genereates EMF Causing Hum
The 1200 Motor is a 3 phase motor driven by precision quartz controlled DC pulses. There is no AC voltage present that could cause a hum producing electro magnetic field.
However, in the left hand rear corner of the chassi, there is a power transformer. Until 2009, the transformer used was a low profile very well sheilded part. the EMF radiated field at the cartridge was less than 7 miligauss. In 2009 a change was made to the transformer and the EMF field increased dramatically.
So, while there is some emf radiated by the transformer, only in the later models will that be enough to produce a slight hum in unsheilded high output cartridges. It still does not present a problem for moving coils or fully shielded high output cartridges.
There could still be other unknown sonic effects of EMF, and an external power supply is a good way to eliminate this concern altogether.
In most cases of hum it can be traced to either a ground loop, bad ground, or proximity to associated equipment with big unshielded power transformers like tube amplifiers. Deciding where to place a turntable should aways take these things into consideration. An EMF meter can be useful in hunting down sources of radiated hum producing fields.
Myth Explained.

 

[ChrisAndre]

Lesestoff for de som er interessert og som er skrevet av en ekspert på Technics SL-12xx. Interessant og man kjenner igjen mye av mytene som etter mange tiår fortsatt henger igjen som sannheter etter at de europeiske selskapene ønsket å proklamere for remdrift fremfor DD. Direct drive er ikke nødvendigvis det beste, men hva er det. Det jeg vil til livs er mytene og tildels denne litt nedlatende holdningen fra enkelte om direct drive.

Så les om du vil, det er kun ment som litt opplysende info

 

[knarfar]

Siden det er en del spørsmål rundt armbytte, fordi armen kanskje ser så billig ut osv, så limer jeg en del myter om SL-1200/1210 fra Kevin hos KAB USA. Har limt den inn for en stund siden, men det er interessant lesing:

https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/

Problemet er vel at det er solgt alt for mange og folk har sett armen for ofte. Den er meget velkonstruert og påkostet. Mangler vel kun oljedempingen. Genialt enkel og funksjonell på lik linje med drivverket.

 

[ChrisAndre]

Er du fortsatt fornøyd med GS Reflex M? Synes det er litt synd at den har bittelitt for lav gain. Liker når det er 45-46db på MM. Men lyden husker jeg som frisk og musikalsk. Nå som jeg har byttet ut rørforsterker til Hegel 160 (nøytral til anelse varme), 1210M5G som spiller nokså nøytralt med anelse varme og ProAc som er meget oppløste; så ønsker jeg en Riaa som er litt på den varme siden og med et stort lydbilde. Nordost Blue Heaven hele veien gjør også sitt til at musikken er veloppløst uten å bli analytisk. Så Electrocompaniet ECP-2 er veldig aktuell. Den ligner jo veldig på Whest ps.30R sånn i gain og spec, men jeg synes generelt at Whest er overpriset. Synd det er så få som har hørt ECP-2 her inne, bare...